Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast Episode #81 – Safe Spaces in Yoga – Yoga in Sudan with Nathalie Bittar

Welcome to Episode #81 of the Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast! My conversation with Nathalie Bittar, a yoga teacher and the first yoga studio owner from Sudan, was enthralling as we took a deep dive into yoga as a complementary practice, not a competitive practice to religion.

I hope that this conversation expanded your perception of how yoga can be a space for community, trust, and safety and how yoga can help you individually, and a community as a whole, shed defenses, shed armor, and help trauma to move through. If you’re looking to tune into a podcast episode that is all about yoga in Sudan then this is the conversation for you.

Tell me more about Nathalie Bittar

Nathalie Bittar opened the first yoga studio in the capital city of Khartoum in Sudan in 2008, named Blue Nile Lotus. She is trained in Vinyasa Yoga, Tibetan Heart Yoga, Anusara yoga and Jivamurkti yoga and more. With over 1,000 hours of training, she can’t get enough yoga. Nathalie also leads yoga teacher trainings in Sudan, and leads yoga retreats worldwide. She is also a psychotherapist in Core Process Psychotherapy.

Some of the retreats that Nathalie creates are tailored for those who live or work in North Africa and the Middle East. There are specific issues that they’ve encountered while living in this part of the world. She explores these topics during the retreat in a safe and confidential setting. For instance, some topics include shame, blame, criticism and growing as women in a male-dominated environment. These topics are common worldwide. However, what Nathalie tries to do is weave the western approach of yoga, meditation and psychotherapy into the local context. Through yoga and meditation, they soften the mind and the body, creating spaciousness. Then through circles and group work, they actively listen to each other allowing for collective healing to occur. Retreats will be taking place in 2023 and 2024. Check the Blue Nile Lotus website for more information. 

What to expect in the Yoga In Sudan episode of the Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast

Nathalie was working and living in New York City when 9/11 happened. In fact, she worked in the towers. Not the ones that fell— the one across the street. She had just begun practicing yoga that same year, and kept going to practice throughout that time of enormous trauma and turmoil. Yet, as the practice healed her, it still felt like a mystery.

That led Nathalie to do her first yoga teacher training, and she decided to move back to Sudan to open the first yoga studio in her country in 2008. We talked about what it was like for her to open the first yoga studio in Sudan, and if there was any pushback. She expressed fears about the police shutting it down or disturbing the classes, but fortunately, that never happened. We also talked about what a difficult time it has been in the last few years for Sudan, with overthrowing the government in April 2019 and just over 2 years later a military coup taking place in October 2021. Nathalie shared with us how has yoga helped her community during this time of turmoil.

As Nathalie leads yoga retreats not just in Sudan, but worldwide, we also delved into what advice she has to offer to yoga teachers who are one day hoping of leading yoga retreats themselves. As Nathalie conveyed, always have a plan and always have an eraser!

This was a beautiful conversation about trauma, safety, trust, shedding defenses, and how healing can happen on and off the mat, in and outside of the studio, all with, through, and by… yoga!

Curious? Tune into the whole episode on Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast and learn more about yoga in Sudan!

Favorite Quote From Nathalie Bittar

“Yoga it’s a way to be fully here. It’s a way of slowing down. Very practically yoga it’s about turning off the phone, putting away the computer, and really arriving in the place that I am and then just being with giving permission for the body and the mind to be with what is arising. And that can be the wonderful moments after yoga. It can be really uncomfortable moments. We talk about them as dark and light, but I just feel like it’s my humanity that is given room to just arise and for me to just be with in a gentle way.”

Connect with Hayet

bluenilelotus.com

https://www.instagram.com/bluenilelotus

https://www.facebook.com/bluenilelotus

To contact Nathalie directly: [email protected]

https://www.facebook.com/bluenilelotus

The company she previously worked with is kaylolife.com, CEO Natalie Munk

Support the podcast:

https://www.patreon.com/wildyogatribe

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https://wildyogatribe.com/thepodcast/

Everything you need is just one click away! Check out all the resources here: https://linktr.ee/wildyogatribe

Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast Episode #81 – Yoga in Sudan with Nathalie Bittar Transcription

[00:00:00] Lily Allen-Duenas: Namaste family and welcome back to the Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast. Today I’m so excited to be joined by Nathalie Bittar. She’s a yoga teacher and the first yoga studio owner in the capital city of Khartoum in Sudan. She opened Blue Nile Lotus in 2008, and she has received over a thousand hours of training in Vinyasa yoga, Tibetan heart yoga, Anusara yoga, Jivamurkti and more.

And she now leads yoga teacher trainings in Sudan and yoga retreats worldwide. Moreover, she’s also a psychotherapist in core process psychology. So Nathalie, I’m so excited to talk to you today, diving into your story, your thoughts, your philosophies, your methodologies. So let’s dive in. How are you doing today?

[00:00:54] Nathalie Bittar: Thank you, Lily. You make me sound so great. I am doing so well and thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

[00:01:00] Lily Allen-Duenas: Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, let’s just kick it off and hear your story. Hear how yoga came into your life?

How did yoga come into your life?

[00:01:06] Nathalie Bittar: That takes us back to 2001. I had just moved to New York and I was living and working in the East Village, and a very good friend of mine came and said, “Look, you’ve gotta try this thing out. It’s called yoga.” And I was a bit skeptic, but I trusted her. And so she took me to the Jivamurkti Center that at the time was on Lafayette Street.[00:01:30] 

And Sharon Gannon was teaching at the time. And at the time I had no idea who Sharon was, but I entered the class, super shy, there were all these hip people in New York, put my mat down. And I did the class. And at the end of yoga class when I laid down, I just started crying.

Being present for 9/11

[00:01:46] Nathalie Bittar: It was unexpected but it felt like a great release. And at the end of class I was like, okay, I’m gonna keep. And so I did. And it was 2001. So shortly thereafter, 9/11 happened. I was working in the towers, I was working in the corporate world at the time, and I wasn’t in the two towers that fell; I was working in one of the towers that was directly in front, and so there was a lot of trauma around the whole incident. But to add to it, I had a Sudanese passport and that was one of the countries that was flagged on the terrorist list.

So I got called in and I had five years of very intense airport experiences being randomly selected and having to go to the airport three hours before. And I was traveling a lot for work. So yoga was super helpful just because it was a safe place to go to. And I could release and I could find myself again.

And then Obama came into power and then the officer said to me, “Welcome home.” When I came through, and I was so happy. It was the first time that had actually happened.

[00:02:51] Lily Allen-Duenas: Oh wow. And even just hearing you say, Nathalie randomly selected at the airport. I’m sorry… I just it’s… it’s not random. It doesn’t feel [00:03:00] random, and it feels intentional and cruel and I’m so glad that after Obama came into administration, that you had that switch flipped finally.

And also I’m grateful that yoga had been there for you the whole way, the whole time through. And I’m sure that your practice… what were you actually feeling was translating from your practice into these experiences to help you navigate?

How Did Yoga Help You Navigate Your Experiences?

[00:03:25] Nathalie Bittar: I think that there was a lot of fear in the body that I was holding, being Arab and living in New York at the time. And I think that just going into Asana practice and focusing on the breathing and doing the pranayama and just even hearing all of the philosophy that was so beautifully woven into the classes, I think it just felt like a very safe space.

And I think that yoga just allowed for the release without me cognitively realizing it. I think I was just releasing a lot of that tension that I was holding. And so I would often come to the end of class just feeling a lot more spacious, a lot more present.

[00:04:04] Lily Allen-Duenas: No, it makes complete sense. Yoga is amazing at releasing tension, and as you said, almost subconsciously helping us let go of things. And I think as we practice every time we’re on our mat in the beginning of the practice, that’s really where you feel like you’re practicing is on the mat space, but it is that slow over time when you are practicing patience or [00:04:30] staying still staying present or with all the guidance that the teachers say, which usually is about listening to the body or being mindful of your every movement or breathing, having more space for experience and sensation to breathe space into tight places. 

Yoga is a Gift

[00:04:47] Nathalie Bittar: Yeah, definitely. At the time not having studied yoga yet. It was always such a mystery when I would go into class, but it would, I think the way that they taught, especially at Jivamukti at the time, was just really well prepared. And it just had an effect. I didn’t understand what was actually happening to me at the time, but it just kept having this wonderful way of bringing back. And not having me go down the path of being scared or worried and just letting me come back into my own body and be present with myself, and I don’t think I would’ve had the words then. Today I do because of all of the trainings, but back then I didn’t. But it was a huge gift.

[00:05:27] Lily Allen-Duenas: I like how you said in the beginning it was like a mystery to you, how that would happen in practice before you’d study cuz I feel like some of my students have that like look of bizarre wonderment like, “What just happened and how did that happen?” So I think mystery is a good word for it.

The Mystery of Yoga 

[00:05:42] Nathalie Bittar: That’s so true. And I think that’s what leads most of us to wanna do a teacher training cuz we… so much is happening in class and we don’t get it. Like Sharon used to say, “It’s like the new church or the modern church.” You’d go and things would just happen and you didn’t really realize.

And then I think you wanna understand what’s under the hood. And so you’re like, okay, I’m gonna spend more [00:06:00] time, I’ve gotta do a teacher training, I’ve gotta figure out what this is all about.

[00:06:04] Lily Allen-Duenas: Oh, absolutely. And so since we’re talking in the same vein of yoga, during your time in the U.S. and in New York, just helping you process and navigate all the difficulties that surrounded 9/11 and the aftermath, I wanted to also ask you about Sudan. I know the people in Sudan have had such a difficult time in the last few years with overthrowing the government in April 2019, and just over two years later, the military coup taking place in October, 2021. So how has yoga helped your community during this time of turmoil, and how has it helped the Sudanese heal and move through the trauma?

How has Yoga Helped the Sudanese Community During This Time of Turmoil? How has it Helped the Sudanese Heal and Move through the Trauma?

[00:06:42] Nathalie Bittar: Yeah, it’s a beautiful question. Sudan is a country that not many people know about, and it’s actually, for those who don’t know about Sudan, it’s located directly beneath Egypt. And it’s actually four times the size of France. And it has, two of the Niles so two of the rivers that come together and they meet in the capitol in Khartoum; you’ve got the White Nile and the Blue Nile.

So it’s a very large country and it’s been through a lot. And the people, like you just said, there was an overthrow of the government of Bashir who had been in power for 30 years, which is a very long time. And they overthrew him and it was a very peaceful protest. And a lot of the people came together for the first time and different factions of Sudan came together and there was a real sense of unity. And they overthrew Bashir and there was a real [00:07:30] sense of… A sense of hope for freedom. A sense of hope for a very different future than what they had been living through. That sort of went on for a little while until 2021, in October, where the military came back in and there was a coup. And it’s been quite violent. The coup have been very violent with the protestors have been jailed and beaten and a lot of people, especially the youth, have been affected.

So there’s a lot of trauma that’s being stored for a lot of families in Khartoum. And yoga is still quite foreign to people in Khartoum, like not many will come to yoga. There is a middle class that is drawn to it. But for those who do come, it provides a safe and confidential space where they can really be with themselves and then they can also be in community. And I think the sense of community is what’s also important for them when it comes to healing.

The Power of Community

[00:08:24] Lily Allen-Duenas: Yeah, the power of a community, coming together and holding space for each other. When you have a community that comes together and can support each other and just talk things out, or even feel things out, just holding the space for the feelings that are often kind of people think of as unpleasant, and it’s hard to show those every day to every person or to want to let them out. But when you have people who understand and can offer some solace or some comfort or just acknowledgement. Yeah, this is [00:09:00] real and this is really hard.

Safe Spaces in Yoga

[00:09:02] Nathalie Bittar: Totally. And I think you put it so nicely because I think that there is… society and community is very strong in Sudan. Having lived in the West, the sense of individuality is very strong, right? But in a place like Sudan, everybody knows everybody and you’re just… it’s always one or two degrees of separation.

They’ll ask a family name and automatically they’ll be able to trace where you come from and what area you’re from. It’s very tight. So you’ve got the trauma on one side and all of the suffering that’s happened. And then you’ve also got the society and the community that’s very strong.

And while that can be really supportive, there aren’t that many spaces where people can come together and share their pain, and share what’s actually happened in the protest, or feeling that they’re not going to get into trouble or that there’s not a police that’s looking, that it might cause more issues down the road with security. So that sense of safety is really missing. So if you can find that and if you can find people who are willing to come together and talk about it, there’s a lot of healing that can happen.

[00:10:09] Lily Allen-Duenas: Yeah, absolutely. And You talking about safety, it took me aback, I was thinking about it in such a different way about the importance of community, with more of the mental health side and the trauma and that, but then you talking about police and safety and physical safety in that way. Wow, that really hit me.

[00:10:28] Nathalie Bittar: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a different level [00:10:30] of safety.

[00:10:31] Lily Allen-Duenas: And so also I would love to just go a little deeper with you, Nathalie, about how and why you feel that yoga resonates with the Sudanese.

How and Why Yoga Resonates with the Sudanese People?

[00:10:41] Nathalie Bittar: It’s interesting because yoga, I think as I heard on some of the other podcasts with folks in Arab countries, there’s a little bit of skepticism, caution when someone wants to enter into yoga at the beginning because they worry that it might be a different religion. And Sudan is a Muslim country.

There are Sufis in Sudan, and Sufis is a branch of Islam that is a bit more mystical. So it leans towards yoga but in general, people can be quite cautious about entering into yoga when they do take the step and they do come and they see that there’s a sort of a physical practice to it and there’s a breathing practice and there’s a meditation it really opens them up and all of those elements that I just spoke of have links into the existing traditions that they have.

When you think about Asana, it’s interesting. One of the students who did a teacher training had done a comparison between the Asana practice and the prayer. And there are actually quite a few poses. I think they’re like five poses that are very similar between both. When you think about prayer, in Islam they pray five times a day. It’s much easier to enter into prayer when you feel like your mind is clear. And so meditation is a great gateway. [00:12:00] So it’s not seen as two distinct practices that are in competition with each other, but rather they can be… that yoga can really compliment what’s already there.

[00:12:11] Lily Allen-Duenas: Wow. Nathalie, you said that really eloquently and totally beautifully; that it’s two practices that are not in competition with each other cuz you’re right, so many people all across the world who are strong in faith are hesitant cuz they, there’s a lot of myths surrounding yoga and they know that yoga comes from India, different culture. They… there’s that hesitancy of, “I don’t wanna do anything that goes against my beliefs.” And so do you feel like you’re opening a bit of a gateway?

Is there still a lot of skepticism in Sudan, or do you think that they’re just the global awareness of it, right, on Instagram and all over social media, do you feel like it’s becoming less and less of a mystical kind of scary, strange thing, or not yet?

Yoga in Sudan

[00:12:57] Nathalie Bittar: You know, There are not that many yoga studios in Sudan; there are probably just two at the moment. So it’s still budding. It’s very much in its infancy. And I think that. I think what’s happening is the folks who were trained, for instance, who did their teacher training, the majority of them are Sudanese.

So I think it’s through them that they’re gonna be able to go out and start to really show the connection and make the practice theirs so that it doesn’t feel so foreign to someone else who they’re gonna give class to. I think there will, they will continue to be skeptic because Islam is such an integrated [00:13:30] part of life and society in Sudan. But I think that there is more curiosity. And I think that people will probably start to move into that direction because they are looking for ways to heal and to feel better about themselves. And I think yoga really helps them do that.

[00:13:47] Lily Allen-Duenas: And since you opened your… it’s the first yoga studio in the whole country, right? In 2008?

Opening the First Yoga Studio in Sudan

[00:13:52] Nathalie Bittar: Yeah, I’m always careful about saying that cuz the first is such a big thing, but I think it was, there were some friends who were doing individual classes, but there wasn’t a yoga studio. There wasn’t a place for people to actually come to. And then when we opened, my sister was with me, we opened it together, it was a great place because it attracted Sudanese and it attracted the expat community because there’s such a huge community of people who come to work for the UN and other NGO organizations. And it was a wonderful place where Sudanese and what we call expats in Sudan, but foreigners could come together and practice and then hang out after and eat dates and drink what we call Karkade which is hibiscus tea and hang out and talk and get to know each other.

[00:14:36] Lily Allen-Duenas: Wonderful. Yeah, I love that you were brave enough to open the first yoga studio, right? Like it’s such a, probably a scary endeavor to open any business, in my opinion. It takes a lot of bravery to open a brick and mortar and put time and love and energy and financial stress and strain into all of it, but was there any pushback when you opened it?

Was There Any Pushback for Opening the First Yoga Studio in Sudan?

[00:14:59] Nathalie Bittar: You know, it was a family thing. So I came back after doing my first teacher training and I left New York and I knew I wanted to come back to Sudan. I wanted to work with my dad and I wanted to open up the yoga studio. And when I decided to do it, my sister helped me and my mom helped me.

And it became an extension of our house, basically. So there was pushback in terms of, we were really worried that the police or the security would cause problems and might come upstairs and say, “Hey, what are you doing? This is not okay.” But it, they never did. And and we felt quite safe after a while. It just, it was there and people would show up whenever they showed up, and it grew to be quite a nice community.

[00:15:40] Lily Allen-Duenas: Oh good. Yeah. And I do want, Nathalie wanna ask you about your yoga retreats. I know you hold them worldwide and I’m curious why you decided to start running and facilitating retreats. Cuz I know most yoga teachers, or a lot of our listeners are dreaming of planning and leading yoga retreats. That’s just one of the biggest dreams in their night sky, is to do that. So I would also love to hear, what advice would you give them for starting out, or what do you wish you knew about leading and facilitating retreats or anything you wanna share on that? We’re all yours!

Advice about Leading and Planning Yoga Retreats

[00:16:16] Nathalie Bittar: From an advice perspective, I would just say come in with a plan for the six or seven days or however long you wanna hold the retreat, but make sure you have your eraser cuz things are gonna change. [00:16:30] And be open to what the group needs and where they’re at. Retreats for me at the moment is actually where my heart is.

I feel very passionate about creating collaborative spaces outside of our day-to-day where people can come together and we can learn. I’m really trying to move out of the sort of teacher-student position and I really wanna try and create more of collective through circles, through sharing cuz I think that we all have our own wisdom and I think it’s really about starting to trust in that and allowing it to sort of surface. And I find that retreats are really wonderful settings to let that happen.

[00:17:14] Lily Allen-Duenas: Yeah. So what was it like when you first decided you wanted to lead one?

What was it Like to Plan Your First Yoga Retreat in Sudan?

[00:17:18] Nathalie Bittar: Oh, it was scary. It was fun. I put a lot of thought into it. And I was working with a very good friend called Esther who had also been in Sudan, and we were… I think one of my first retreats was at the Red Sea, so in the north of Sudan. And we were with a group of majority Sudanese and some foreigners and really planned everything that we were going to do.

And it’s a yoga retreat, but we’re not only there teaching yoga. We were bringing some workshopping. We were having some group sessions as well, and it was a lot of fun. It’s a lot of work. And then things definitely go wrong: accommodations aren’t exactly as you [00:18:00] expected. The food isn’t exactly how you thought it was gonna be.

You think it’s vegetarian, but it’s not, just a whole bunch of quirky things that can come up. And you’ve gotta make sure you’re taking care of yourself so that you can maneuver and work with all of the different hiccups that are going to come that are definitely gonna come. And have a sense of humor.

[00:18:18] Lily Allen-Duenas: Yeah. And so you do lead yoga retreats as well in Spain or in other spots in Europe. And do you have any any tips also on leading a retreat when it’s not in your own country when you’re looking to do something somewhere else?

Tips on Planning a Yoga Retreat in Another Country

[00:18:31] Nathalie Bittar: Yeah, if you can visit the place before I think that’s always a good idea. Like I said you plan as much as you can and then you dive in and you’ve gotta in Sanskrit there’s a word swaha, which means I just let it go. Like you plan as much as possible and then you just let go and you’re like, “It’s gonna be what it’s meant to be.”

[00:18:48] Lily Allen-Duenas: Beautiful. Another element of yoga in our practice to take off our mat: letting it go. And Nathalie too, I would also love to ask you, I ask every guest who comes onto the show, what is your definition of yoga?

What is Your Definition of Yoga?

[00:19:05] Nathalie Bittar: There are the very traditional definitions of yoga which I think are lovely and I aspire to when I think about union and the bigger definitions, I think on a day-to-day when I do my practice, yoga it’s a way to be fully here. It’s a way of slowing down. Very practically yoga it’s about turning off the phone, putting away the computer and really arriving in the place that I [00:19:30] am and then just being with giving permission for the body and the mind to be with what is arising. And that can be the wonderful moments after yoga. It can be the really uncomfortable moments. We talk about them as dark and light, but I just feel like it’s my humanity that is given room to just arise and for me to just be with in a gentle way.

And then I think on a collective level, if we can get to a place where we’re in community and we’re able to just be who we are, without our own internal judgment, but then also not our judgment towards others, if there’s a way to really be together in that space through yoga practice and pranayama I think that would be my ultimate definition of yoga.

[00:20:18] Lily Allen-Duenas: Oh, lovely. Thank you so much for sharing. So Nathalie, I also would love to learn and hear from you, your thoughts. You know that I am big on collaborative spaces as well, and on the global yoga community about having conversation and connection with yoga teachers around the world and learning from each other and sharing the practice, not just if we’re in a physical space together, but what can we learn from each other in a bigger, more expansive way?

I would love to hear your thoughts on why do you think it’s important that yoga is all around the world right now?

Why is it Important that Yoga is All Around the World?

[00:20:54] Nathalie Bittar: We’re in a bit of a tough position globally speaking with the environment, with [00:21:00] politics, with the economic situation. With post COVID, I think there’s been a lot more internal suffering than we’re aware of. I really do think that yoga’s an amazing way of healing without necessarily needing to take medication, without needing even sometimes to go see a psychotherapist, although I do think that’s a good idea. It’s a way for us to start to get to know what’s going inside of us. . And so we need some form of place to be able to breathe, and move into ourselves, and really get to know the things that are blocking us.

And yoga is a great tool to be able to do that, a great practice to be able to do that. People have access to these kinds of practices the more they can start to shed some of the defenses, or the armors, or the traumas that they’ve experienced. And as we work on ourselves, I think it just makes for a much more harmonious world to be living in.

[00:22:01] Lily Allen-Duenas: And that’s the dream: a more harmonious world. And Nathalie, you mentioned psychotherapy, so I would love to talk to you about psychotherapy and core process psychotherapy, and how you feel like maybe being a psychotherapist informs or influences your practice or your work as a teacher?.

How Being a Psychotherapist Informs or Influences Your Work as a Yoga Teacher

[00:22:21] Nathalie Bittar: Yeah. When I started teaching yoga in Khartoum, a lot of people at the end of class were, having their moments and going through the same thing [00:22:30] that I did when I had my first class in New York: a lot of crying and often they would come and wanna talk about what was going on.

And while I loved sort of engaging in those kind of conversations, there was a part of me that wasn’t sure that I could give advice or that I knew what was going on. And so I felt that I really wanted to have time to explore what was going on within the mind and the body. And so I found this incredible master’s degree in the UK in a small village called Devon.

And it’s a bit like Hogwarts, right? So everybody arrives once a month for a week. We spend time together in the countryside, in a little house in the country. And you wake up, you’re in meditation, first thing, you’re in a meditation circle and you’re receiving all of these teachings that have their roots in Buddhism, and this is Buddhist psychotherapy.

So the closest thing in the U.S. would probably be mindfulness based psychotherapy. And the idea is that you’re really now working with the body to understand what is happening inside of me. What is the sensation? What is it trying to tell me? 

And the theory behind the core process is the same as with yoga. Really, it’s the same, it’s the same principle that we’re born into this world with clarity and we slowly, because of the way that we navigate through life with family, with society, like we might have the best parents in the entire universe, but things are gonna [00:24:00] happen. Come into this world, we’re gonna start crying, we’re not gonna be fed at the right time. Things are just gonna happen. 

And as a result of that, we’re going to end up forming defenses and armors and protection, and those could serve us when we were toddlers and when we grew up. But as adults today, they no longer serve us. And so the idea is, as a psychotherapist, I’m not here to psychoanalyze you and tell you have all of these different issues. My role is to journey with you and to remind you of your true nature. 

And so I found that this type of masters worked so nicely with yoga because it really provided me with an understanding that through the asana practice, things could start coming out. And then through this kind of psychotherapy, I could be there to receive, and to understand, and to really feel without feeling the need to have to fix, but really trusting that person is going to find their own solution or the clarity within themselves to be able to realign.

[00:25:02] Lily Allen-Duenas: Okay. Yeah, I think that’s, I think you said everything beautifully, and I love that you are seeking to journey with someone. And I know you also said you’re trying to move a little bit more out of the space of teacher and into the role of collaborator and the being in the role of a teacher or a mentor in any space, like, that’s a lot of responsibility and you’re not alone in that [00:25:30] a lot of my students, and I hear it all the time from teachers, that a lot of students are seeking counseling or therapy from their yoga teachers. And while there’s a lot of love and compassion, there does have to be a bit of a boundary that I am not a licensed professional and that I cannot, probably, actually help you to the extent that you’re needing.

But it’s amazing that you are a psychotherapist! So when you are, in conversation with people after class and they are seeking more guidance from you, or seeking to really unload more of their heart to you, do you pause them and say, “You know what, do mind actually booking a session?” Or do you just do your best to hold space?

Cuz I know your time is not infinite as well. So how do you navigate that?

How to Set Boundaries as a Yoga Teacher Whose Students are Seeking Emotional Counsel

[00:26:16] Nathalie Bittar: That’s a great question because in the type of psychotherapy that I’ve been taught and in psychotherapy in general, there are very clear boundaries. So if someone in Sudan comes to my yoga class, and becomes a regular student, I am actually not allowed to become their psychotherapist. So I can hold them at the end of class and we can explore and we can discuss, but I cannot engage in a formal client psychotherapist relationship with them.

And at the beginning that used to be really hard, and I would even question the reasoning for those boundaries. But over time I think they make real sense. I’ve worked with some clients for three years and it’s been really hard because they’ve really wanted to come to some of the yoga workshops that I have or some of the [00:27:00] classes or the teacher trainings or the retreats, and I have to keep saying no.

And it’s because the relationship that we create together is quite unique and very personal. And it lives within this space of the two of us basically because it is also very relational. And taking that out and then being in a yoga class or in a workshop it doesn’t work or it doesn’t lend itself well to the type of work that we want to do in psychotherapy.

[00:27:27] Lily Allen-Duenas: I hear that, and I also hear that it would be a little painful and sometimes in the beginning to say, “Oh man, like this person would benefit so much from coming to a retreat with me.” But knowing okay, we can’t mix up that bag. It has to stay in that separate kind of the container that you’ve created.

And if it gets mixed in, then there could be ripple effects, I’m sure to the other people who feel like you have a special relationship with one person or… I dunno. I could see how it could get messy and I’m even perhaps communicating it in a messy way.

Yoga Retreats Allow for Elements of Psychotherapy to Come In 

[00:27:58] Nathalie Bittar: No, I think that’s exactly it. That I think it, it’s on both sides. It’s like how other people would feel, how the client would also feel in terms of seeing me in those different spaces, whether there would be an expectation for a different kind of relationship with me in that kind of space.

And so we really do need that kind of container, and I think that’s why retreats have become really appealing to me because in the retreats, although I can’t bring my psychotherapy clients into the retreat, the type of work that we do, Lends itself to [00:28:30] yoga, but then to also exploring. So there’s the asana, there’s a pranayama but then the workshops are very much around active listening really being open and hearing about what’s going on in the body. And I think that the space of a retreat lends itself nicely to allowing for elements of psychotherapy to come in along with the sort of traditional yoga practice.

[00:28:51] Lily Allen-Duenas: Yes. Nathalie, I know that you were also involved with a startup and it was called Kaylo and it was about bridging modern and ancient healing modalities. I’m not sure if you wanna touch on that, but I was curious if you wanted to speak about Kaylo.

Kaylo Non-Profit: 360 Holistic Modalities to Help People Heal

[00:29:07] Nathalie Bittar: Sure. So the person who I mentioned insisted on taking me to my first yoga class in New York when I went to Jivamukti Yoga in 2001 is a very good friend of mine from when I was 13 years old, and she’s one of my closest and dearest friends. And we’ve stayed very much in contact and our lives have been woven in.

And she is the CEO of Kaylo. And when she came up with her vision, I was very inspired by it. And her vision really is to look at the traditional modes of wellness and health. And combining that with the holistic modes. An example down the line would be if a patient finds out that they have cancer, they might want to have, for example, a specific yoga practice that is really tailored to them. They may want a nutritional meal plan that really works with the kind of chemo that they’re going to be doing. They may want a [00:30:00] circle that will be composed of people who might be going through chemo or something similar, where they can really let these, let their issues surface and explore them with other people.

So Kaylo was really looking at merging these two elements together so that someone. Would really receive, like the 360 holistic modalities to help them heal. We’re take, there, it’s of a progression to get there at the moment. Kaylo has developed some amazing journeys, specifically targeted to empowering women and also to empowering men.

I think they range to about 12 weeks and they have amazing practitioners. And every week a practitioner will take you through a specific topic that’s related to, for example, if we’re talking about empowering femininity or empowering women, then they would be looking at perhaps sensuality, consent boundaries things that, you know, as women perhaps we struggle with. And they’re doing the same thing in terms of creating journeys for men.

[00:30:58] Lily Allen-Duenas: Oh, that’s wonderful. That sounds like an amazing organization. Is it specific to Sudan or does?

[00:31:03] Nathalie Bittar: No, not at all. She’s Canadian and it’s, most of the practitioners are in the U.K. So I joined because I have a background also in the digital world, and because I also worked In yoga and I did a psychotherapy and everything. And because she’s a very good friend I helped build the digital aspect of the Kaylo platform. So you can go to it. It’s called kaylolive.com. And they have a lot of really great programs.

How to Get in Touch with Nathalie

[00:31:28] Lily Allen-Duenas: Wonderful. I will be sure to link to it in the [00:31:30] show notes as well as link to your website, bluenilelotus.com and any socials you’d like me to, so any of our listeners can just open the show notes, scroll down, click a link and you’ll immediately be connected.

Or you can go to the wildyogatribe.com/yogainSudan, and all the links will be there, as well as more information on Nathalie and a transcript of this episode. So if you wanted to listen back have, or just look back and find a quote or find something Nathalie referenced, that’s an easy way to. So Nathalie, I know to wrap up, we did talk about yoga in Sudan and what that kind of scene is like there. We talked a little bit about Sudan as a whole, but is there anything else about your country you’d like to [00:32:11] share?

What is Sudan Like? 

[00:32:12] Nathalie Bittar: I mean, I think that Sudan is one of the best kept secrets in the world. Everybody who goes to Sudan ends up by loving it. They say that if you drink a little bit of the water of the Nile, then you’re definitely going to return. And all my friends who have gone have made it a point to drink the waters of the Nile because they wanna return.

It’s… I think it’s got a lot of bad rep in the media. But the people there are incredible and there’s a sense of generosity that is very rare to find in the world nowadays. So I guess I’m saying all of this because people go to Egypt, but Egypt only has 118 pyramids. If you go to Sudan, we have 200 pyramids. So I’m just giving Sudan a little bit of a good rep cuz I think it’s a very special place and I hope that more people will visit it in the [00:33:00] future.

[00:33:01] Lily Allen-Duenas: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing, especially that pyramid fun fact! That’s always interesting to learn, and I did not know there’s more pyramids in Sudan than Egypt. So, if any of our listeners are, looking to join you on a retreat or have a question for you, or are planning a trip to Sudan as I mentioned, we’ll link everything to get in touch with you in the show notes. But is there anything you’d like to share about how people can reach you?

[00:33:25] Nathalie Bittar: I think the best way probably would be through [email protected]. And there’s the website, bluenilelotus.com. There’s also a way to reach me through that.

[00:33:35] Lily Allen-Duenas: Perfect. Thank you so much, Nathalie, for being with me today on the show. It has been such a joy to learn from you..

[00:33:41] Nathalie Bittar: It’s been really lovely. Thank you for creating this podcast and creating a space where some countries that don’t usually get a lot of visibility really are given an opportunity to have a voice. So I’ve really enjoyed listening to your podcast and it’s been a real pleasure having you ask me questions that I have had in my mind for a long time. And it’s been really lovely to be able to articulate them and say them out loud. 

Wild Yoga Tribe Podcaset Outro

[00:34:04] Lily Allen-Duenas: Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast. My conversation with Nathalie Bittar, a yoga teacher, and the first yoga studio owner in Sudan, was enthralling as we took a deep dive into yoga as a complementary practice, not a competitive practice to religion. I hope that this conversation expanded your perception on how [00:34:30] yoga can be a space for community, for trust, and for safety, and how yoga can help you individually, and can help a community as a whole: shed defenses, let go of armor and help trauma to move through. If you are looking to tune into a podcast episode that is all about yoga in Sudan, then this is the conversation for you. Thank you for listening to the Wild Yoga Tribe Podcast. Be well.

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